welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me Cathy our
first guest Dominic frisbee is that rare
thing a funny anarchist he's a comedian
and author and expert on money and
economics and a man with a vision of
life after the state Marx believed the
state would wither away but after a long
time and when a state of communism had
finally been reached Dominic believes
the state should be cut down now leaving
us to the tender mercy I would say a
free-market barbarism he came to our
attention with his dissertation on the
house price bubble where he argued in
the property market where a train crash
waiting to happen is he a whistleblower
for freedom we'll find out because he
joins me now on the Sputnik dominic
welcome to the show thank you about with
the train crash described it as its
hurtling towards us please well listen
London is an entity in itself and I've
called the top in London property before
I was there I was 2007 and I was right
there was a I won't call it a crash
where there's a big slowdown in 2008
2009 but the difference between then and
now is that there's a huge amount of new
build property that has built been built
in London very expensive most of it to
bed flats priced over a million pounds
and Londoners it's it's all marketed
marketed abroad mostly in Asia Londoners
if they can prefer to live in period
property it's nicer it's more stylish
it's more individual and they will live
in new builds but only if it's priced
considerably lower than period property
but on a per-square-foot basis a lot of
this period property is priced more
expensively than period properties in
the same areas and I can't remember the
numbers so forgive me George but it's
something like I want to say 53,000 to
bed flats are coming to the market over
them that either being
or in they have planning permission in
the early stages of construction coming
to the market over the next two or three
years when something like 3,000
properties priced above a million sold
in this at the same price last year so
in other words you're looking at
something like you know 20 times normal
demand coming to the market in the next
24 months and like I say it's it's new
build period property there's property
that locals don't want and there's a
long history of price bubbles we had the
price bubbles in the other city centers
in the UK Manchester Birmingham leads in
2007 and it was all prime located city
centre new build flats not bought by
locals but by foreign or investors not
from the city and the same pattern is
happening again so London property is
very resilient but that particular niche
new builds expensive flats is a huge
bubble difference however is that
foreigners who invest and buy these
properties then do not occupy it and
until you stay empty we see it
everywhere that that is absolute madness
and and I believe there's a culture in
China where a lot of these properties
are marketing the Hong Kong Singapore
China and there is a culture there where
they don't live like to live in people's
houses that if somebody else's lived in
and but the result is that those
properties stay empty and there has to
come a point where those people will
want to sell and who's gonna buy them
because they can't sell to other Chinese
people there's obviously a lot of
Chinese people with a lot of money
potentially buy property but they if the
Chinese aren't gonna want to buy them if
they've been occupied by somebody else
so who do they sell to there's no local
market because the locals don't wanna
don't have the money to buy that the
property that's that expensive a local
if he's got a million pounds to spend on
two bed flat were going by somewhere
trendy and shoreditch if I was the mayor
of london i would tax the
foreign owners that can't be beyond the
wit of man or woman could I think that's
coming George because um there is a the
property market in London is crazy it's
it's something like ten times what
people earn and whereas a healthy market
should be about three and a half four
times what people earn a Camden is for
some reason the worst offending borough
in that regard it has it's at eleven
times earnings candid property and you
know there's a huge amount of resentment
over fifty percent of people aged under
forty believe they will never own a home
in London fifty percent and you know and
and and foot the age of the first time
buyer is now in his high 30s in London
you know that that's the age is buying
his first flat what point is he starting
his family it's absolute insanity and
you know there is so much anger and
justifiable anger about this and one of
the ways that you know people are
already calling on a vacant homes tax
Islington is already researching it and
if they start imposing a vacant homes
taxed and a lot of people going to sell
those to build properties like I say who
are they going to sell them to yeah that
all adds up to a tumble in the prices
what's the infatuation with owning
property first of all of course for most
of your life you don't own it you're the
building society or the bank owns it in
France as I understand it in Paris most
people live in rented homes in London
you would be regarded by mrs. Thatcher
like the 30 year old man still traveling
on a bus as one of life's failures if
you were in a rented at home where did
this come from this very British in fact
yeah the Englishman's home is his castle
and I think one of the reasons for it is
George is over the last 40 years or so
we have seen an incredible process by
which money has been debased by which
money has lost its purchasing power if
you look at what you could buy with a
pound in 1975 or 1970 compared to what
you can buy with a pound now we've seen
this incredible depreciation in the
purchasing power of money and at the
same time wages have increased but by
not nearly as much as the purchasing
power of money
fallen and the reason for that is that
money is created on a huge scale and
again I can't remember the numbers of an
organization called positive money it
came out with them but over fifty
percent of newly created money has found
its way into our residential or
commercial property so in other words
what has happened with property is that
property price in short property has
been one of the only ways that people
have been able to protect their wealth
their money has fallen in value
purchasing power their wages have fallen
regiment relative terms and the only
hedge against the depreciation of money
has been property in fact in many
people's minds property has actually
risen in value and they think oh house
prices only ever go up so i think it's
it's it's this huge wealth that has come
unearned into people that have dr i sold
my house for more than a million pounds
more than i bought it for and i had the
privilege of living in it for did you
get it up to 17 years not very much
frankly running repairs and so on
nothing I mean definitely i made a clear
million pound profile properties is
absurd it's like a car car falls in
values a depreciating asset propertied
appreciates over time it should fall in
value the cause is the fact that did you
know this only two percent of all the
land in the in england and wales doesn't
include scotland this figure it's even
worse if you include scotland has
domestic housing on it two percent and
and if you and sorry I seem worse than
that it's 2.2% domestic and commercial
housing on it and if you include roads
there only four percent of the land in
the UK is built on not you see we're
overcrowded no money left I'm very
interested in your work I don't actually
agree with your central tenets that the
state is a bad thing I'm against the
people running the state not the state
per se most of the intentions behind the
state are good most intention
well intentioned but along the line what
happens in the process just get abused
people don't enforce the rules they make
properly you know the one missing in the
moment is the rules of maastricht words
enforced and now we've got this
ridiculous Greek in Greek situation so
my tenant against the state is that it
it it always ends up getting corrupted
somehow this almost has no state it has
now a series of foreign overlords barons
issuing diktats in it but the Greek
people are not prospering as their state
has without know but my point would be
it's a philosophical question I know
it's not the state who will provide for
the pensioners who will provide a health
service who will provide schools for our
children based on on need rather than
life financial ability people will
because I'm what's called a
bleeding-heart libertarian I call myself
and I think most people are
compassionate and most people will you
know you need to go out more well this
is a huge this conversation we'll have
this conversation another program this
is a huge subject but i'll give you the
bleeding-heart libertarian argument i'd
be interested to see what you make of it
but the problem is you can't afford to
pay the state to provide schools and
education thing and then afford to buy
all those things yourself but if the
state isn't providing them then and it's
not taxing you the individual people are
left with a lot more money the state is
the most expensive purchase you ever
make in your life more expensive than
even your house and if you suddenly have
that capital to spend and invest
yourself many people will invest that in
care education and all the things the
states currently provide and when the
people who are spending the money rather
than having the government spending on
your behalf customers are very good in
forces of proper behavior on the people
that they buy from so things like health
care and education so on will people
will compete for those and trades and
the quality of service will improve and
the price of those services will fall
these are tory arguments but you don't
seem like a Tory I'm not I'm
I'm a I'm a libertarian I'm a black ass
I'm a bleeding heart libertarian I heard
the term libertarian Marxist for the
first time no that's definitely an
oxymoron it is seconds left yeah is the
house market about to plunge newbuilds
i'm wearing a lunch give me a percentage
listen I looked vauxhall sw8 has 30
years of supply coming to the market in
the next two years 30 years of supplier
built yeah new boxer is newbies so we're
here it'll be on so wait before you buy
in vauxhall twenty eight twenty five
percent I'll say eighty-five percent off
the market it'll last a year from now
we'll have you back on God not if not
before take two years it takes you days
Dominic I really hope that people look
up your work you got a website Dominic
frisbee calm Dominic frisbee calm he's a
really really interesting character
coming up after the break what happened
to Britain when and how did it become a
gambler's paradise we'll be right back
welcome back to Sputnik when I was a kid
gambling was so illegal in this country
that not a single bookmaker shop let
alone casino existed in the land people
who wanted to place wagers on horse
races did so with a criminal bookie and
his bookies runner standing on the
street corner was regularly subject to
arrest one of the mysteries of this age
is how Britain became transformed into a
gambler's paradise and under the prime
ministership of a Labour government led
at the end by a figure Gordon Brown
whose father was a church of scotland
minister and who was otherwise bowed
down by the burdens of Presbyterian
rectitude now you can't move for bookies
and a televised advertisement you can
even lose your house while sitting in
playing online who let the small print a
gambler's should behave responsibly not
worth the paper it isn't rested on
joining us now to discuss how and why it
happened and take a flutter on where
we're headed this professor Jim orford
of the University or Birmingham but
first gayatri red gloves and all ask the
London public what they thought gambling
still seems like I've fin just um
exploiting people getting their money
sort of think I'm fair odds like you're
never really gonna win like yeah just
another transfer money into the hands of
wealthy people I think it's out of
control for some people I think it
becomes addictive and is a big problem
it depends if you class something like
playing the lottery is gambling as well
I guess which is a bit more different
which I would agree with but i think
these online casinos and things it
sounds like they can cause a lot of
problems act some phones and everything
it's too easy and it doesn't seem like
real money i know one or two people have
been involved in unlike a sea nose in it
and starts off very well and they're all
sudden they take a hit and lose a load
of money so i think there's an unhealthy
amount of advertising about gambling on
the television I find it actually
overwhelming
and I'm not someone who ever does gamble
I'm a neuroscientist and I understand
the power of addiction and I think that
the pushing pushing pushing that you see
on television all of the time in peak
hours of adult viewing is just too much
professor thanks for coming on board the
Sputnik let's start with that
sixty-four-thousand-dollar question how
did this happen why did this happen well
it's a long story and I remember that
time is worthy but that was how it was
when I was was growing a bookies runner
yeah young people no don't look is
onerous well exactly and then it he
changed in the 1960s because that was
when bookmakers shots became became
legal and there was a period there was a
pier between the 1960s and probably when
the National Lottery started was
actually much more significant than
people than people realize cuz it opened
the floodgates of other sorts of
gambling as well but in that period
between the sixties and and the
beginning of the 1990s was a period when
gambling was tolerated and book his book
as were made legal but it wasn't
encouraged that was that was the crucial
you want allowed to advertisers you
weren't allowed to advertise it and
there was a very significant thing
called the demand test so if you if you
in your area you already had a bookies
bookmakers shop and someone else wanted
to start another one so Vlad Brooks
already had one and Paddy Power wanted
to start another one they had to
demonstrate to the to the council that
there was unmet need well now that all
changed with the 2005 gambling act and
this was the one that New Labour brought
in and really looking back new labor I
mean there are no Labour MPs who were
Allen time who apologized for this I
mean they realized that they were very
uncaring about what would happen to to
gambling and society and how this would
put people at risk because of gambling
gambling problems but basically what
they said is gambling is now to be
considered as an ordinary commodity it's
just like any other entertainment from
which furniture pay it's good business
it's good business for Britain so one of
the things they said was internet
gambling
should we legalize Internet of course we
should and I think that's had
extraordinary effects I mean the things
that people realize that happened as if
that is all the advertising and
everybody and I talked to says you know
we're fed up we're being bombarded with
with advertising and I think what's
happened is is essentially two things
one one is that the the 2005 Act gave a
green light to the industry to innovate
and my goodness haven't they haven't
they innovated so and I think that to
two particular things that have totally
changed gambling I'm again me in those
days that you were you were talking
about though the book is Rama it was it
was principally betting on horses and
there was dog racing in the stadia as
well but some football pools and son but
but what's happened there's two
particular forms of gambling dominate
now one is internet gambling which
actually is still it's still a minority
pursue but it's rising very very rapidly
and the other thing at I think most
people aren't aware of an S you're
particularly interested is the the
innovations technological innovations in
gambling machines so you remember that
you remember the gambling machines the
11 our ministry good all differ though
the one up the one our bets not like
that now play me their sophisticated man
these are now 24 hours available on
service state motorists ER physician yes
might way sir so the zoe was run there
at eleven o'clock the restaurant is
closed but you can go into i would pick
up this 2005 gambling act i was there i
paused it yes good the Labour Party of
which I was for 36 years a member
founded more on Methodism than Marxism
with a strong moral code and so on in an
irony isn't that perhaps the biggest
apostasy of them all that a Labour
government turned Britain into a
gambling free-for-all yes well I think
it is and one of one of the things
that's clearly happened in recent years
is that is that because the forms of
gambling have changed horse racing is
still there but but now that the
internet and and also the machines there
these very very dangerous and you
means in book is I don't if you realize
but now they're about 10 years or so ago
they invented these machines they call
fixed odds betting terminals and you
will have come across this because
there's been the government been under a
lot of pressure to do something about
these they slipped in the industry said
these aren't really gambling machines
they're completely different cuz you can
play roulette on it's not like that you
know lining up three you know three
lemons or cherries it's it's it's about
playing roulette and blackjack and so on
therefore they're not gambling machines
therefore the maximum of two pounds
which used to be one pals just recently
got two pounds the maximum two pals
shouldn't apply and you should be
allowed to bet a hundred pounds at a
time and the we've got these machines in
the bookmakers shots now they're causing
enormous amount of trouble all the
evidence from surveys and so on is that
they're appealing particularly to poorer
people unemployed people particularly
they cluster in poorer areas the local
authorities can't do anything about it
because of this demand test and so if
they say that we've got three booking
you know bookies already we don't want a
fall hmm and the fourth comes the longer
than when they can't they can't do
anything that no I opposed one of the
few to do so I opposed the introduction
of a national lottery yeah in fact on
several of the clauses there was only me
and the late Reverend Ian Paisley in the
lobby and he said to me fancy me in a we
paid like you being the only two members
of the house to stand up against the
devil's buttermilk that's how the tide
was the tide was for gambling more
gambling yes and of course then there
was the scratch card which i described
as the crack cocaine yes of the National
Lottery business the bluest people is
spending the most money yet on the
desperate hope of coming up trumps with
these cards it's grown and grown and
grown would it be fair to say that
there's no going back well I i think the
22 views i kind of veer between one and
the other i mean one is yet it's it's
very difficult once
once so many people are dependent on on
finances in the gambling industry and
once the government have gone down that
way every time they try and draw back
from things for example if they wanted
to there's a very good campaign called
the Pharaoh gambling campaign we've been
arguing and making a lot of noise let's
reduce this maximum 100 pounds down to
the two pounds which is normal rhythm
other machines the government have said
yes we should do something about it but
they've dragged their feet over it
they've said oh we've got a research bit
of research project here let's wait
until we get the results the research
happens to be financed by the gambling
industry which is another thing don't
get me no no no and so then once you've
got things it's it's very difficult I
think to pull back from the other on the
other hand I sometimes via towards the
other point of view and you you've
talked to the people in the street about
this and weed in the national surveys a
number of attitude questions were
included and it is surprising that
actually most British people a much more
inclined towards a policy which is like
that period between the six to the 60s
and the 90s let's tolerate it we don't
about it we don't want to prohibit it
all together um but let's be very
careful about it let's regulate it very
carefully don't let's encourage it well
look professor you cannot advertise
cigarettes on television in newspapers
on buses you cannot know soon even by a
cigarette packet with a with a logo on
it plain paper wrapping how can it be
that gambling which is actually far more
damaging to more people then smoking is
is everywhere around us on every
television station all night and every
other mediums Possible's surely we can
get a campaign up that seeks to restrict
the amount of advertising of this Devils
buttermilk yes I agree and the undie and
the costs the costs are very very
considerable but we think the evidence
the epidemiological evidence is that
amongst adults and that's not counting
adolescents who are particularly
vulnerable but amongst adults we think
is some
between a quarter and a half a million
people who actually have a gambling
disorder in written and that is that's
very similar to the to the number of
people who've got drug illicit drug
related offenses which is a tip of an
iceberg it's just like that you're not
measuring the alcohol problem by the
number of people who go to a meeting yes
there are millions more at family and
Families it's you have a devastating
families and for n for communities and
and and so professor we know we need to
leave it there alas but it's a
fascinating subject and we'll see if we
can find a way i was gonna say there are
some pains gambling what UK is my
website gambling watch you only watch UK
which I really set up in order to try
and get people to debate these issues
yes cuz it's a it's a bit under the
radar Larry you share this just what I
wanted you here on the Sputnik to this
gambling watch UK yep I'll look it up
know right after the show
and now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media what's rattling gayatri so
gambling is it harmless entertainment or
dangerously destructive and s on the
street the response online were the same
Steve brindle says capitalism has no
moral boundaries corporations daily
breaks civilized mores and I'll keep
Muhammad says fact always remember what
goes up must come down the pumping is
done the dumping is to come and Jack
Beckett says for those making millions
I'm sure call it harmless entertainment
for but for those left picking up the
pieces it's dangerously destructive well
as Mark said with capitalism all that a
sacred will be profaned all that is
solid will melt into air and that's it
for this week which alas means that's
the end of the show you can stay in
touch with us on twitter at RT
underscore Sputnik and on facebook when
Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye for
me Gaia 30 I'm from me George Galloway
it's been marvelous
you